The God Delusion

[Gubben]

lol ok dv8, you win, i cant argue with logic like that. Lets agree to disagree and leave it at that mate

But re aboriginal culture i think you are displaying the kind of thinking that christian missionaries might have brought when converting across the world, denying the validity of indigenous beliefs in favour of christian ones. Sorry mate but the height of arrogance.

Why wouldnt they have sacred sites all over the place, they were largely nomadic and lived in/with the land.
Why wouldnt they know? Proud race but what are they misinformed about that you are better placed to tell them?
Why wouldnt they fiercely stand up for their heritage in the face of genocide? The aboriginals i know and have met across the NT and elsewhere have a pretty good idea of their heritage. Its not surprising that their culture has been decimated in 200 years by the europeans along with disease and drugs. why wouldnt they fight to retain what is left?
How is their view of creation any more cocooned than yours? Just because its not yours doesnt negate it or give you the right to tbh. Because big fish carving out rivers is so much more unlikely than moses parting the river or Jesus walking on it isnt it?

But peace bro

[kplxz]

@ Gubs-

Sifz ive previously said i'm neither a scientist nor a theologian so i think that fact is well established, yeah?
- I bet you apply scientific skills to things you do with film all the time. You also have spent some time obviously researching what the truth is for you. Many scientists are idiots as are theologians...I think you missed my point.

I do however have an imagination and am entitled to believe what ever it is my mind finds reasonable, same as you or dv8.
- Again, my point was not that imagination is all that is required to form a knowledgeable opinion on something complex. That's like saying to the Physics Advanced Microscopy guy who has seen at some level atoms, "I've imagined what atoms are like therefore I'm good right? "

You can read the words of men as much as you like and take as many decades as you wish. Bottom line is, no matter how adamant you or anyone else wants to be, NO ONE will ever know the truth. Simple. So theories whether scientific or theologic will be simply that.
- This is where you are partially wrong Gubs. Read some of the material that's out there. Much of the truth can be discerned. Much more than the mundane principles that are used by "the masses".

As for the 60000 years, its not the scientists, its the aboriginals who say that. Is their voice not valid unless some missionary says so? Who are you to dismiss them? Also there is evidence that this continent was visited by Chinese, Indonesians and the Spanish, BC, (ie before Cook). and to be honest i dont see what the relevance is to europeans getting here in the last 200 years to the existence of humans being around for only 10000 years, i mean how do you come to that conclusion or is it written in the bible and you are taking their word?
- surely we are way beyond accepting how long humans have been around for? There's enough scientific proof to show we been here a reeeeeeeeeeal long time. Also there have been forms of advanced civilisations for a looooong time...so not just cavemen either...

[kplxz]

[Gubben]

Sifz, i play guitar but dont consider myself a guitarist, i write but dont consider myself a writer, i surf but am not a surfer. When one says one is something in that vain, to me it means one is a professional. Even if i use technology with my work and art that doesnt make me a scientist nor a theologian because i ponder life and reality.

And of course we've been around longer than 10000 years ffs.

[kplxz]

To me a professional is someone who gets paid and holy dooly there's some "professionals" getting paid a bucketload that shouldn't have anything to do with thier "profession" and are a disgrace to it...

The degree of skills needed before someone can say they "are something" is an interesting topic. I think it has something to do with acceptability of peers when using that skill. IMO you write well, I enjoy it and I would call you a writer any day. I play the guitar and I don't get paid but I think if I sent you a recording you wouldn't think it too far stretched if I called myself a guitarist.

...

[xplosiv]

Funny and thought-provoking side-joke:

Q: What do you call the person that came last in med school?
A: Doctor.

[Dv8]

Sry gubben i wasnt trying to sound racist at all , your right they have a view an important one at that ,
i dont think i expressed my views properly at all with the aboriginal perspective .
I should have pondered the question a bit more before replying , i am one
of the first advocates for equal rights amongst aborigines and any cultre for that matter .
So can i withdraw my comments :-/

But i do agree we should agree to disagree , its a battle of the ages and one only won with time .
"dv8, you win" No winners at all .
We are all trying to make sense of this planet we call home .

Peace mate

[frodo]

[Gubben]

No worries dv8.

Yes sifz the degree of skills needed before one can claim to be something is something that has been topical for me for a long time, first as a film maker and then as an artist or musician and more recently a writer, as i have some natural abilities there which has irritated friends over time. It has to do with peer opinion and also whether one gets paid to do such work as to whether one is professional or not. And for sure there are always going to be those that get paid even if they dont really have the skills, cos they blew someone... But this is off topic (unless one feels that these talents are "god given"...)

[Dv8]

Gubben i thought about my of hip comment a bit more last night about Aboriganies .

There is a distinction between the indigenous in the NT compared to the suburben .
i live in an area where the gang of 49 have been running rampant for years (a group of Aboriganies)
Home invasions , armed robbery etc etc , off topic i know and it has nothing to do with there religous views
But im sure if you interviewed them it,d be hard to get anything constructive , displaced as you said , confused
as i observe .
Back on topic , the dreamtime stories compared to bible "stories" have no backing from texts or Archeology .
Interesting point on the parting of the red sea , Archeologists have found chariots wheels , up to 8 spokes putting that type of chariot right in line with the egyption dynasty at the time of the exodus , also coral encrusted human bones have been found at the same site "bottom of the sea floor" Doesnt prove or disprove anything but interesting nontheless .
But Archeology has confirmed many bible accounts and sites cant say the same for the dreamtime .

[kplxz]

[Gubben]

Re the Aboriginal question, watch this and lets talk. Watch the whole film, that is just a trailer... seek it out.

http://youtu.be/ElW6M0hU7jo

Back on topic , the dreamtime stories compared to bible "stories" have no backing from texts or Archeology .
Interesting point on the parting of the red sea , Archeologists have found chariots wheels , up to 8 spokes putting that type of chariot right in line with the egyption dynasty at the time of the exodus , also coral encrusted human bones have been found at the same site "bottom of the sea floor" Doesnt prove or disprove anything but interesting nontheless .
But Archeology has confirmed many bible accounts and sites cant say the same for the dreamtime .

Lol so archaelogy and science are acceptable when it suits you i see. No backing texts? It doesnt appear that there are any texts of any kind in aboriginal culture, because that wasnt their way of recording history. Thats like an aboriginal saying there are no dot paintings of Ancient Egypt so he doesnt believe Egyptian history unless he finds a dot painting to prove it...

Finding bones and chariot wheels at the site referred to proves only that a human and a chariot wheel were there, not that Moses parted the sea at that location, or am i missing something?

[spud]

lolz, checkmate indeed!

[Dv8]

I see your point of course , what im saying tho is not about science at all , archeology on the other hand has proven some sites in the bible etc that were previously thought to be myth .
They havent found sodom and gomora , they havent found any proof so far as to the isralites being in the desert after the exodus
(as yet) but because its in the bible i believe those places existed , because archeology has confirmed alot .
That is a lot different than having faith in science , archeology isnt a changing theory as such , at least they have something tangible to work with .
So yer i really steer right away from science confirming anything in the bible or denying as your right you cant have it both ways .
Science in computer models have supposedly confirmed a spot where the red sea crossing may have happened and also the right amount of wind from a certain direction may have parted the sea exposing a reef , enough they say to get across , as i dont have a great deal of faith in science i think its a crock :-/

I agree , i watched that trailer , it is sad what is being done , thats typical of the government , and the crime they commit is probably because they cant earn a living any other way , we as whites are all responsible for whats happening to the aboriganes in there opinion , i cant fix the problem , the goverment can , we can only vote , i,d gladly have an aboriginal work along side me , and have had black and aboriganal friends .
Unfortunately the divide is getting bigger . I only hope one day they find peace , as ive said if the bible is true a world were total equality
and brotherhood is comming where finally there all be a smile on there face , it is a hope i hold and a faith i have .

[cresh0r]